Mandatory Pledge of Allegiance
is a Civil Liberties centric issue
Mandatory Pledge
I have three kids. My first and third go to a private Christian school, and my middle goes to a School for the Blind. I have never heard the Pledge be said in the private sect. My blind daughter however, though going to a 'Public School' says the Pledge of Allegiance every morning before school starts. I find that very interesting since religion seems to be the only way you can believe in your country according to some folks.
vote for Hi-C says:
"I have three kids. My first and third go to a private Christian school, and my middle goes to a School for the Blind. I have never heard the Pledge be said in the private sect. My blind daughter however, though going to a 'Public School' says the Pledge of Allegiance every morning before school starts. I find that very interesting since religion seems to be the only way you can believe in your country according to some folks."
I don't understand the sentence "since religion seems to be the only way you can believe in your country according to some folks." Can you please clarify?
I think it makes sense that a religious institution would not require its pupils to pledge allegiance to the state. It seems more likely that it would want to stress their duty to the higher power. Since public schools are funded by the state, I'm not surprised the state would take the opportunity to indoctrinate America's youth.
Mandatory pledging is awful and should be ruled unconstitutional... any court cases I've heard of where children refuse to say the pledge have ended with the school dropping the requirement before it goes to the Supreme Court. If your child is uncomfortable with it tell her she doesn't have to say it and tell the school to go to heck. You send her there to learn, not to be indoctrinated. If she doesn't really care either way talk to her about nationalism and patriotism (in terms she'll understand) and let her take what she wants from the experience. Anyway good luck dealing with all that, keep us updated with your thoughts and feelings on the subject.
Everyone should have the right not to say the Pledge of Allegiance but I don't see why everyone wants to make a big deal over another American wanting to say it, It is just like the Ten Commandments if you don't like it get over it I am so sick and tired of people trying to change things that are not hurting anything at all. I have seen and heard people talk about the war, ten commandments, gun control and they are the people that will not shut up about something until they get it their way IF YOU DO NOT LIKE TO SAY THE PLEDGE OF ALLEGIANCE OR SEE THE TEN COMMANDMENTS THEN CLOSE YOUR EYES COVER YOUR EARS OR BETTER YET MOVE TO THE NORTH AND SOUTH POLES AND START YOUR OWN COUNTRY BUT GUESS WHAT YOU CAN NOT DO THAT UNLESS YOU ARE ABLE TO DEFEND YOURSELF FROM ANYTHING PHYSICAL OR SPIRITUAL.
oy!
Why do nationalist conservatives so quick to throw people with opposing views to the lions? do they so easily forget this nation's founding principals for individual freedoms. true- when i see the ten commandments or hear the pledge it doesn't hurt me personally, nor does it really hurt anyone. But the absence of it doesn't hurt anyone either does it? There are plenty of reasons to omit certain phrases and meaningless pledges, its not about hurting someone's feelings. Most people who think the 10 commandments are still important are mostly hypocritical anyways, and this is coming from an ex-catholic
1. you shall not have any gods before me
interesting how religion gave god.... a god-complex. His existence is eternal whether you choose to believe in him or not. This passage is mostly just to prevent people from worshiping other gods, as if that would send them a stray from being a moral person, which is funny because you could argue all the religions claim to worship the same "one true god" and yet different gods at the same time from catholics to protestants to Jews and Hindu's no matter how small the difference in ritual really is. ..and personally i don't think god cares if you pray to a bowl of jello each morning, if it makes you happy and you are a good person that does good deeds for your fellow man, not even god himself could fault you for that.
2. do not create any idols
Well there goes Catholicism which is funny because they are the original christian church. but when you think about it, we all create idols, idols give us something to aim for, it gives us dreams, and hopes. So really this one is b.s.
3 do not use the lords name in vain.
...Because you have never said "god damn" or "Jesus Christ" when angry. furthermore this goes back to your "if it doesn't hurt you who cares" mentality. Does it hurt you when i say blasphemous language? no.. not really. most people don't pay attention to this passage though anyway.
4. keep holy the sabbath
basically saying go to Church in current times. but before it meant not working at all. no yard work, no anything. the only people that really follow this one is Hasidic Jews
5. honor thy father and mother
..shouldn't honor be earned not just given? shouldn't this be dependent on the parents performance. i know a lot of crappy parents who don't deserve their children's love.
6. thou shall not murder
My favorite. because we define murder and killing different, even though they are the same. we give authority figures like state officials and military personnel the right to kill, but if Joe schmo does it its called murder. Really this one all depends on who is doing the killing and who's getting killed. The bible itself is riddled with war and death.
7. Do not commit adultery
Good rule to live by. honestly i have no problem with living by this rule, but........ is it really on my top ten things i shouldn't do in my life? no.
8. Do not steal.
Again a good rule, i have nothing against it. but..... what if you are dying of hunger what then? God shall provide right? but god works in mysterious ways, what if the opportunity to steal is his way of saying "here eat this" . And what if he doesn't come to your rescue? should you die just because you were last in line in the god help me hot line? surely god wouldn't want someone to die this way, right?
9. Do not lie
Lying has it benefits. And everyone lies religious or not. this one isn't really observed by ..well...anyone. we are born liars.
10. do not covet
really? i shouldn't wish for certain things? whats praying for then? whats wrong with wanting something someone else has? its what fuels our economy.
as you can tell the commandments are pretty bogus, and pointless. Town halls could save themselves a lot of wall space and money if they just have some guy write the golden rule on the wall if they really want to tell people how to live their lives.
as far as gun control and the war on Iraq, those are separate issues that do harm many people personally emotionally or physically so why you even mentioned those in the same breath sure beats me.
The Pledge: first of all, mandatory pledges and oaths are worthless. Second of all, you can't have 29 kids saying and the 30th not saying it -- the kid is going to be beaten to a pulp at recess. Freedom isn't freedom if it comesw with intimidation.
Ten commandments, same thing. Keep religion in church, and stop trying to ram it down everyone else's throats in governmental settings.
Yeah, those are hard commandments to keep and even harder to understand, and frankly as a Catholic I must admit I have a hard time keeping them all. So for the uninformed, it's best to look it along the lines of the "idol" comment - they're just something to shoot for - a goal.
Whatever religion, it's is a tough subject to talk about to those who have none or who are ignorant about its genesis or intent - which is why I support separation of chuch and state - at all costs. So whether it's Bush's Faith Based Initiative or Obama's Faith Base Intiative, they both have their potential for hidden agendas and should not be a part of our system of government.
While we're shearing our ignorance of different religions, let me lead with a little of mine, and point out the precept that scares the hell out of me is - "death to the infidels". Who knows maybe 400 years ago my ancestors may have switched to Christianity, and it would troubling to think that someone today would want to kill me because they've labelled me an infidel based on something they read in a book or heard from a cleric.
I am pleased to note however, that some of those Christian commandments were codified in our secularist justice system; I'd hate to think that someone believes they could steal from me or kill me because they believed that's what freedom in this Country means.
I am conflicted however by one liberal precept of morality, where if one calls someone else a disparaging name and it hurts another's feelings they should be run through the justice system, and perhaps even take the place of some felon who was unjustly jailed. I guess it's cause I'm ignorant to nuances of the progressive movement.
Insofar as the original poster's comment, I offer my experience has been that in parochial school we said the Pledge of Allegiance each day. I do accept however, that as this country "progresses" there are those who have a need to feel that their freedom is best expressed by not making any such pledges, and while I don't argue with that choice, I do wonder if there is any nation in this world that would satisfy them enough to which they could proudly and freely express their allegiance?
What mostly amuses me however is, how freely the specter of "patriotism", "love of Country","respect for its flag", "respect for its National Anthem" and the "pledge of allegiance" becomes so frequently and freely expressed when one moves from the confines of Chicago politics to broad expanse of National politics. It just gives me pause to ask whether it was a conversion from a progressive to a conserative mindset or was it just a mindset that was unable to freely express itself within local political circles?
Since this has come back up, i just wanted to post a link of George Carlin's take on the ten commandments
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SyWEBbFwU1o&feature=related
He was my favorite comedian for years simply because of this bit, and you can tell how i got alot of my reasoning about the ten commandments.
May he rest in peace.
btw does anyone know hot to embed youtube video on here? html is being lammme.
