Slavery Reparations
is a Domestic Policy centric issue
quinnhu says:
"There is also Affirmative action which takes care of everything."
Umm, what?
What do you mean that AA takes care of everything? AA in the forms that I have seen, are very broken.
Educational AA in its early forms might have been applicable in some ways, but that was mostly cause of red lining and gerrymandering. Read up on the educational system in India where they are trying to "make up" for their caste system by allowing a large number of third generation "untouchables" into schools not based on merit.
I believe these reparations should be done on a case by case basis. Let the judicial branch sort it out, cause blanket reparations are something that would cost way too much money and would do more harm than good.
Wow...i guess this is the kind of thing you get when anyone is allowed to post whatever they want. While I am against reparations and most forms of affirmative action, your statement "we freed them" is about as offensive as you can get. Who are "we"? Who are "them"? I think this is a bullshit thread and should be removed. Reparations is a legitimate topic for discussion, but for the topic to be "we freed them" is ridiculous. This is exactly the reason the myspace forums are so worthless.
"We" are Americans. America freed the slaves. America enslaved no one. The humans were all bought as slaves from their black brothers who captured them and sold them. No American went into the jungles and hunted down people to put into bondage. You can still buy a slave in Africa and other nations. So America freed the slaves. Up until 1965 it was in their law and legal to have slaves in Saudi Arabia. Under American pressure, they revised their law. But, their mindset is such that in recent years two Saudi's have been sentenced to jail in the US for keeping slaves in the US- and their multiple wives defend their husbands saying it is the way of their religion.
Actually the abolitionist movement was started by slaves who rebelled against their captors. The British outlawed slavery in the British Empire before The U.S. was a country. The first whites to denounce the slave trade were Quakers and Evangelical Christians who started throwing slave owners out of their communities long before the Civil War. Also, The United States is the only country (that I know of) that fought a civil war over the issue. So saying "we freed them" is a little like a prison warden releasing a condemned prisoner at the last minute and saying "it's not like you got executed." We could on and on with this thread, but I think I'll make this my last contribution to it. I'm not here to argue, and I think most who read this will agree with my point that the original post is garbage. Reparations, though I am not in favor, are at least worth a real discussion...not blanket statements.
The question of whether or not to give reparations is far from an easy one. I don't believe those of us alive today are responsible for the actions of our ancestors... but stating the fact that they were freed is hardly enough to make up for crimes of the past.
If you were kidnapped, tortured and enslaved, would you shrug and move on with your life if one day your captor said "well, I'm freeing you"?
Now that said, present day Americans did not enslave the ancestors of present day black Americans. They were not the first group in history to be enslaved, nor the last, so I don't think handing over large sums of money solves anything. I'm not sure if there is any way to really apologize for those actions.
I think it's interesting that so many people disagree with reparations for African-Americans. While none of us alive today experienced slavery in America, the same can be said of the genocide of Native-Americans. However, fairly recently Native-Americans were given reparations in the form of money and land.
Why would reparations for Native-Americans be acceptable, but not for black Americans? Is it that we don't think they deserve them? And if not, how is that a justification for not making amends for an injustice towards American citizens?
I personally believe reparations should be given to African-Americans in the form of increased funding for inner city schools in poor communities. Simply handing out checks would mean little, but leveling the educational playing field at an early age will go a long way to mending the racial divide in this country.
Redking, your point about schools is a good one. However, the deal with Native Americans is about broken treaties between nations, not individuals. In fact, there were many Native American slaves, particularly in Louisiana, but throughout the south. And while I will not argue with the term genocide, I will argue that it is not what they are being paid for.
Who is the black that started the movement? By 1783, an anti-slavery movement was beginning among the British public. That year the first English abolitionist organization was founded by a group of Quakers.
and to the person who said: "I think there are better ways to express your opinions than "we freed them." That language reeks of racial superiority." If Americans are not superior, then why can you can still buy slaves in Africa for a few hundred dollars? Two American blacks went over there a few years ago and bought 2- one for $200 and one for $500 and freed them. So why are Americans not superior???
and "nevertheless, there were native-born Scottish serfs until 1799, when coal miners previously kept in serfdom gained emancipation)" so, white people were slaves in England Serf- a condition of bondage or modified slavery seen primarily during the Middle Ages in Europe.
and The Union had 4 slave holding states fighting on its side against the South. So how could the Civil War have been against slavery?
And Lincoln's Emancipation Proclamation only freed the slaves in the Confederacy which he had no control over, not in the North.
And what about the Muslims who took a million Christians and other people as Slaves. When are they going to pay compensation to Christians? A friend in Saudi Arabia in 1968 was offered $25,000 to sell his 12 year old virgin daughter by an SA. And SA 'abolished slavery' in 1965. And 2 SAs were sentenced in the last 5 years to jail in the US for keeping slaves in the US, and their wives defended them as it being Islamic.
So stop the racism and Europhobia against white people.
I just think it's too much effort right now, we don't need to go threw all of the family histories to give them some money or land or whatever they decide to give them.
If we were to do reparations, we should of done it after we freed the slaves, not over 100 years afterwards.
I can see the other side though in how they would want the reparations but I think all in all it's just too much effort and would cost more money then it is worth.
Can't an I'm sorry just do for right now? :-P
joshmcintosh,
That's a good point about how Native Americans were paid for broken treaties, not individuals - it's an important distinction. However, reparations were still given hundreds of years later by people who did not participate in the act. This seems to be the main argument against slavery reparations - it happened too long ago, and none of us were ever slaves or slave owners.
It would be interesting to know why when most white Americans would agree that reparations should not be given, this subject keeps coming up as a topic of discussion. What does it say to an African-American when a white American in 2007 disagrees with the nation giving even a simple apology for the wrongs of the past?
If reparations were given to Black Americans, they shouldn't be given because of slavery. They should be given for all of our country's racial injustices - including segregation. Racial segregation was recent enough for many of us to have experienced it, accepted it, or fought against it.
The fact that America did not give up segregation without conflict (just as with slavery) says that though laws can be changed easily, people's minds cannot. Though political correctness and a popular denial of racism in general exist today, do the old ways of thinking still exist? How many people would feel safer and more comfortable in the workplace or in stores if segregation were brought back?
I'm with Bethany. I have a problem with the verbiage used in the example given above. I, am, however still against slavery reparations because I think there would be better ways to help the increasingly distant ancestors of those who were enslaved.
Let's see some fiscally responsible creative proposals exploring that additional opportunities and access to college grants rather than cash payoffs. The deficit is out of control and needs to be tightened and while this might be the nice way to say sorry fro the past, it's not very financially prudent at the present time to do so.
redking says:
"The fact that America did not give up segregation without conflict (just as with slavery) says that though laws can be changed easily, people's minds cannot. Though political correctness and a popular denial of racism in general exist today, do the old ways of thinking still exist? How many people would feel safer and more comfortable in the workplace or in stores if segregation were brought back?"
You are correct that peoples attitudes cannot be changed by force, and people do segregate themselves everyday. Not only along racial lines, but along economic lines, educational lines, beauty (ie hotness), and myriad other ways. Even in San Francisco, "the most liberal city in the world", racial segregation is still in full effect. Thde residents of this city like to pretend that it is not so, but all you have to do is take a drive to see that it is. In SF, and probably many other cities, segregation is enforced with the dollar. They (we) call it gentrification. It's not fair, but life ain't fair. Though slowly, this country does move forward on these issues, and in fact leads the world (regardless of what statistics might be produced regarding incarceration rates, higher education rates, HIV rates, etc). You are right that there are many Americans who would feel more comfortable in a segregated work place, but fortunately, our country does not allow that.
Tdavid, as for apologies... I honestly don't think that most would be opposed to an apology for slavery. In fact both Bill Clinton and George W Bush have offered quasi apologies for it, without the official stamp of the U.S. government. I think the fear of an "official" apology is that it might carry legal repercussions, ie, reparations.
Here are a couple of quotes i found from Bill and George-
Bill '98- "Surely every American knows that slavery was wrong, and we paid a terrible price for [it], and that we had to keep repairing that. And just to say that it's wrong and that we are sorry about it is not a bad thing. That doesn't weaken us."
George '04- “Years of unpunished brutality and bullying and rape produced a dullness and hardness of conscience. Christian men and women became blind to the clearest commands of their faith and added hypocrisy to injustice”.
Remember, I did say "quasi" hehe.
A moron is a person who is notably stupid or lacking in good judgment. Judgement- the ability to judge, make a decision, or form an opinion objectively, authoritatively, and wisely, esp. in matters affecting action; good sense; discretion: a man of sound judgment.
You lack judmement, joshmcintosh. You cannot form an opinion objectively or wisely, as do most of the people on this forum.
You did not refute the fact that blacks are capturing and selling blacks right now as slaves in Africa. And have been doing it since before Christopher Columbus. Where are the reparations to their black brothers?
You did not refute the fact muslams took 1 million Christians as slaves and killed most of them. Where are the reparations to the Christians?
You did not refute the fact that 4 slave holding states fought on the side of the north. So the war was not only about slavery because Lincoln did not free the northern slaves it was about other issues and was conflated with slavery as an excuse.
Because you have no facts you resort to denigration. Because you have no judgement, you go around calling people names. Yes, I am proud to be white. White people freed the slaves. It's too bad you are ashamed to be white. It was your forefathers that freed the slaves and invented almost everything in the world. So why are you ashamed? Blacks still have not freed their slaves, and muslams still have not freed their slaves. So why are you ashamed of a proud heritage?
Island, you are obviously correct about my lack of judgment, since i am still bothering to respond to you. As for the fact that Africans are still engaged in a slave trade has nothing to do with whether this country should pay slave reparations. Slavery is still practiced all over the globe. Including in the United States. Women are kidnapped all over Asia, all over Eastern Europe, and elsewhere for the sex trade. Nobody ever claimed (at least i didn't) that the civil war was fought solely over the issue of slavery. As for my pride or my shame, i reserve those things for things i myself have done. I am white because my parents are white. There is no other reason. As for whites inventing everything...you mean like civilization itself? or do you mean cell phones? Oh, one other thing you were correct about. I should not have called you a moron. I should have just let people see that for themselves.
Josh, I would suggest that the Africans that enslaved their brother Africans hundreds of years ago should be the ones that pay reparations. Not the ones that bought them and freed them. And the people that continue to enslave their brothers and fellow humans should be the ones that feel ashamed and should pay reperations. Not me. Not you.
Civilization- if you consider civilization to consist of people that use horses and wagons and captured and used people as slaves, then no we did not invent that. We went beyond that and eliminated slavey. So yes we advanced civilization.
We invented non slavery. We abolished slavery. And if your white ancestors had not invented almost everything you would not have this soap box from which to put out your (as you said earlier) crap. You would be toiling in the fields subsisting and starving- unless you were a slave owner and master.
And as you, I am white because my parents were white. And I am not ashamed of it like you are.
If you think other people are better and other countries and other "civilizations" than America, please let me know which you believe is superior.
And just when this was turning into a decent thread....let's make a deal island. You keep your pride, I don't want it. I will take mine in raising a good boy, or writing a good song, or helping an old lady across the street. You know, stuff like that. You can keep your superiority as well. I don't need it. Let's also agree not to argue who loves America more. In return, I offer you this large order of Freedom Fries. Friends?
